Angela D. Sims: Silhouette Interview

Angela D. Sims, PhD is President of Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School.

Transcript

UNKNOWN: 0:00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 0:04

Hello, I am Nancy Lynn Westfield, director of the Wabash Center. Welcome to Dialogue on Teaching, a silhouette interview. The silhouette conversations are sparked from a list of standardized questions. We have the good fortune to hear firsthand from teaching exemplars about their teaching and teaching life. Today, our silhouette guest is Dr. Angela D. Sims. Dr. Sims is president at Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School. Welcome, President Sims, to the conversation. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Dr. Westfield, for the invitation. So let's get started. Question one. When you were a child, what did you want to be when you grew up? So when I was a child, I really wanted to be a hematologist. I knew individuals who lived with the real effects of sickle cell disease. And I thought, what if? We had a neighbor who was a department head at Children's Hospital in Oakland, California. And that was where I had my first job as a 16 year old. And getting to see the ways in which the intricate systems of hospitals worked in conjunction with parents and guardians and other caring folk and the ways in which children and young adults who were patients were really encouraged to live their best lives but i kept thinking what if but then that was my childhood dream and i realized later on in life that you know sometimes dreams require sacrifices that we're not always able or willing to make okay but they childhood dreams also are about what you just described right looking for ways to help people, right? Children say, oh, there's a place for me there because I'm curious about that. So it is not a wonder that you would have switched to something else, but even that impulse as a child to say, I'm going to be in a place that is so helpful and so needed and so specific is kind of lovely. Number two, who was proud of you when you became a teacher? whole lot of people in my family. I am the daughter of public school educators and the goddaughter of public school educators. We want names, Angela. Give names. I am the daughter of the late William Roosevelt Stewart Jr. and the late Helen Marie Brown Stewart Swayza Pollard. I am the goddaughter of the late Solon Marshall and Ethel Jackson Marshall. And I commuted with my mother when I was in elementary school with three other teachers. And I think for me, becoming a teacher surprised a lot of folk. because it was a circuitous route for me. But my people were proud that they saw that in some ways that I was honoring them because of their life work, even though it was in a different context, a different setting, but that I was honoring them. And in many ways, my becoming a teacher functioned for them and I'll use my language as a libation. That's beautiful. Yeah, that's lovely. So you were second career when you came to faculty. Talk quickly about second career decisions. I thought that I could successfully manage an accounting career that included supervision and full-time PhD studies. I thought that.

UNKNOWN: 4:06

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 4:06

I worked at an organization where the owner of the company and the CFO were as flexible as anyone would want someone to be. I had a great team, but I realized during my first week of coursework that I had really stepped into things extremely naive.

UNKNOWN: 4:34

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 4:35

And that, you know, there were some folks who tried to counsel me. I'll name two, Kelly Brown Douglas and Cheryl Sanders. But, you know, it was a different era. It was a different time. It's like, of course I can do this right now. And so what I learned in that experience was that sometimes we have to know when to walk away. And I do not regret walking away and devoting myself to full-time studies. I learned very quickly, again, having traveled, done extensive travel, that I thought I could manage the travel as well. And my commute from my then home to campus on a good day was an hour and a half drive. And I learned that if I was going to spend time in the library, that I would be on the road very, very late at night and that I would be exhausted. And so within three weeks, I realized that while travel as a business professional is one thing, traveling as a PhD student is is something entirely different. It requires different body adjustments, different rhythms, and that I also recognize that coming to my studies as a second career also perhaps afforded me some privileges particularly as it related to being able to balance some economic realities and having to make the decision about my third week that I really just couldn't do that commute. And so I am thankful to my then Pastor Luke Torian, who said something to his spouse, Clarice Torian, about my dilemma, who said she had a sister, Patricia Jones-Turner. who lived in the area and that perhaps I could stay with her. Because we didn't have an on-campus housing option in the middle, a fifth of the way into a semester, there were no on-campus housing options for me. And the decision was made, I would stay in Richmond. And it was an easier 15 minute drive when the library closed at 11, 8 p.m. than it was to do that hour and a half drive. And so I stayed with she and her cat Solomon for the remainder of that semester. And I would get to her home about 1130, 1145. She and Solomon would have a cup of herbal tea on my bedside table. And they would come in and chat with me. And I would chat with them for about an hour. Then I would go to sleep and get up, refresh the next day, ready to go back to campus. But What I appreciate coming to the academy, having had a career outside of the academy, are the ways in which persons approach things differently. And recognizing that in many ways, sometimes the pejorative language in the academy around business and business practices really demands a re-examining. And at the same time, I think that there are grave misconceptions in the business sector about some of the realities of the professorate. And I think one of those realities that really needs to be addressed from the business sector are around issues of compensation. And to recognize both the time and resource and just the mental investment that an individual commits when they enter a PhD program to adequately prepare themselves for what might be next. And I am not sure even now how to fully address that. on this side of a chair where I am very mindful of the ways in which there is not always an appreciation for the professorate. And in some ways, I think that the higher education industrial complex has itself contributed to this problem.

UNKNOWN: 9:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 9:44

Who has influenced your teaching for the better? So first of all, I think about some students who unabashedly just would read everything, required reading, supplemental readings, asking for suggestions, and who brought their questions into practice. the classroom. I think about persons like Melissa Pierce, who came to her studies, her theological studies, having already earned a PhD in some area of engineering. I think about students like David Gilmour, who was a retired Navy career person, a PK, love of the church, and who really pushed questions about what it means to really think about the relevancy of church in a modern context, dealing and navigating other issues, recognizing that those issues are going to always be there. But how do you do that work in such a way that the church is in many ways a central aspect of the ways in which I think about myself as a scholar teacher. One of my favorite thing about teaching adults is that in so many regards, they're our peers, right? So we don't lose the teaching authority, but we also often gain conversation partners. So that's lovely. My dad, who is now 16 years old, Charlie Isabel, who as, I think she got her first library card before she was 18 months old, but her natural curiosity, the ways in which she played with Legos, helping me to think about the ways in which I need to be mindful of how I use language like thinking outside of the box or coloring outside of the lines, because in many ways that might suggest or convey to others that there's no value in the box. There's no value in the lines. So how do I rethink that? my approaches to any particular aspect of my teaching. I think about some of the folks who just invested above and beyond in myself. I think about the late Evans Crawford. And the conversations that we had in his office at Howard School of Divinity, where I would just sit and soak up stuff as we're surrounded by his books. He was a homiletician. I think about the late Sam Roberts, who really didn't know what to do with me as a PhD student. It was like, OK, are you little sis? But I could sit in his office and we could talk about heart and heart issues. issues. I think about Cheryl Sanders, who said to me as a first or second year seminarian, Angela, don't be worried about what you're going to call yourself. You just better do your best work. I think about Kelly Brown Douglas, who gave me permission to take her doctor of ministry courses as my electives with an understanding that I was going to show up And I better have done all the reading. And who said to me, okay, we need to work on your writing. And this is what we need to do. I think about someone like Alison Geist Johnson, who said to me, Angela, you're in the wrong degree program. And you're not going to have options for your electives in this DEMAN program. You're going to go down the street and take these classes with Katie Cannon. And I think about Dr. Cannon, who was, as I used to tell her, was generous to a fault. Generous to a fault with her time, with her resources, but who created the space for me. And even when on sabbatical, who said, here's the key to my office. I need you to be in my office on this day only. of every week at this time, and I don't want us to repeat what we discussed the previous week. I think about Stan Skreslet, who was the historian on my committee, and the ways in which he introduced me to a broad spectrum of what used to be called the history and theology of mission. but making sure that I got to know folks who were part of the Maryknoll sisters, who ensured that I had conversations with some different folk as I was working through particular issues and thinking about those issues from a distinctive womanist lens. And him saying, it's okay too, to know that you can push these other areas as you're using that lens. What has surprised you about teaching or the teaching life? I think one of the things that has surprised me is something that one of my colleagues when I was working in corporate said, and she herself was Orthodox Jewish, and she said, avoid a tendency to look for answers. follow the questions and see where the questions lead. And I think it is the questioning aspect that has most surprised me about teaching, particularly as I have made a transition from a quote unquote former classroom to an informal classroom where I am engaged with learners who are not enrolled in a degree program. Do you enjoy writing in longhand? And if you do, what is your utensil of choice? So let me say one of the things I discovered about six or maybe seven or eight years ago is that I had really lost my capacity to write in longhand. Because I had become so dependent upon electronic writing tools. Keyboards. That when... I do sit down to write in longhand, it takes longer because my brain has been retrained. And I am really thinking now, what would it mean to retool myself once again, to wean myself from the devices and to go back to probably pen and paper? But I also have discovered that My penmanship hasn't become unrecognizable to myself. And so making sure that when I grab something that is legible enough that I am able to pick up and go with it. But for me, writing longhand has become a lost art. And I think it's most unfortunate. And I did not realize that it was happening. What's your superpower? If I have a superpower, I would say probably perseverance. I tend to think about the long objective. And sometimes that's not good. But that allows me in many ways to stay focused. But at the same time, I think perseverance allows me to think about what it means to see myself as both one who attempts to be compassionate, but who is at the same time firm. And I don't know if sometimes those collide in ways that don't always lend themselves to being received by others in the manner in which I intended to be received. I mean, I think that's well said. It's the leader's dilemma. So you are compassionate, you are open-hearted, but you still have decisions to make for the better good of the whole institution. So our next question is an infamous question. Don't think too much about this. Just let us know. What's your favorite cuss word? Shit. But let me say, I didn't start cussing. until after I was ordained. Of course. I never cussed preordination and had unpleasant things to say about folks who use what I've now described as colorful, appropriate, sometimes the only most effective language. It takes church leadership to get you there. Hmm. Next question. How have you survived certain violences in teaching? I think part of the ways I have survived has been to recognize that there are some things that I don't need to internalize. Others have been to have folks that I know that I can go to who will simply listen and not try to offer me a solution, not try to justify the behavior, not try to suggest any types of retaliatory measures I could explore, but folks who are just willing to sit and to hold it. And I think some other ways I have survived it is that I have tried not to perpetuate the harm that I have received. Yeah, all lofty and difficult things to do. Which is why shit is sometimes my only response. Yeah, yeah. Next, what healings have you witnessed or received in teaching or the teaching life? Oh, so when I think about healings in the teaching life, I think, first of all, about my own healing and the ways in which I have learned to be kind and gentle to myself. I realized that where I am on any given issue across the theological spectrum today is not where I was a year ago, certainly not where I was 20 years ago. And I am mindful of something that one of my maternal aunts said to me, Emma Butler, I might have been 13 or 14 years old. And I was a child of the Black Baptist Church. And with all of its good, with all of its bad, and particularly with all of its bad, when it came to an understanding of the full humanity of all of God's children. And I said something extremely hateful, and I'm thankful that I don't remember what I said, but I know it was hateful because of the retort I got from my aunt to one of my cousins. And my aunt said that God would have to soften my heart. And I have never forgotten that. And so when I observe the ways in which students open themselves up to be transformed by knowledge, to be transformed by experiential learning, and to see a student move from a very hard and fast stance on something to be an open person, to hearing and exploring, and then to move to the point where they may say, you know what, I got that wrong. And let me consider what I need to do to amend any harm that I've done because I got it wrong. That's where I see healing. I see healing in teaching when employees across the theological spectrum are able to engage in constructive dialogue. And I have to ask myself, how do we then take that out into these larger worlds and communities that we inhabit? If we can do it in this particular space, How do we do it in the other spaces? I think the other places where I see healing in teaching is when I and other professors really acknowledge the ways in which teaching at its best is never proselytization. Teaching at its best means that we are reading broadly and we are introducing our students to broad perspectives perspectives, giving them some tools that they can use throughout their life journey to assess the value of the resources that they're engaging, knowing that if we're not introducing them to a broad spectrum across their studies with us, then perhaps, just perhaps, they really aren't poised to construct an informed theological response to any moral dilemma. that they may encounter, but the healing is fluid. And oftentimes I find myself amazed when healing is taking place because it suggests that sometimes I'm not as attentive as I need to be to what's going on and how to keep my hand on the pulse of the institution. Last question. At the conclusion of your teaching career, so not now, not soon, but at the conclusion, what miracles will you have performed? You know, Lynn, when it is time for me to make my transition into the eternal realm, I hope that I will have enough presence of mind to be able to say, I hope, just hope, that I left a little nugget in somebody that they will continue to raise questions that I myself did not know to ask. Yeah, that's the dynamite, right? That's the curiosity that spawns other curiosities, right, is the miracle. That's nice. President Sims, as always, my friend, my colleague, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having this conversation. Thank you for the conversation, Dr. Westfield. It's always good to be in dialogue with you. To our listeners, we encourage you to subscribe to our newsletters as well as take an ongoing look at our website. There's information on our website and our newsletter about our workshops, about our educational resources, as well as our regranting program. A special thanks to sound engineer Paul Myrie and the music which frames this silhouette podcast is the original composition of Paul Myrie. Wabash Center for more than 30 years is exclusively funded by Lilly Endowment Incorporated. And we are out. How was that, Paul?